Preventing your cat injuring themselves and how to treat them if they do get injured, with Dr Matt Breeds from Animal Rehab Klinik

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We don’t want to think about our cats getting injured, but the reality is that they are like athletes. We chat to Dr Matt Breeds from Animal Rehab Klinik to understand how to prevent our cats from getting injured. We also dive into the different non-surgical rehab treatment methods that are available for our cats.

What we talk about

• Most common injuries we see in cats and dogs

• How to tell if a cat has an injury

• The first thing they do when an injured animal goes into their clinic

• How they diagnose an animal

• How the encourage an animal to go through the tests

• Options that are available to rehabilitate your pet

• What is the rehab treadmill?

• What is Class 4 laser therapy?

• Causes of torn cruciate

• How to prevent injuries

• What is post-surgery rehab?

• What is prehab?

• Preventative rehab

• Story about a cat Matt treated

• Using positive reinforcement in treatment

• Sunday’s story

• Advice for preventative methods to improve your cat’s quality of life

• Most entertaining comment someone has said about animal rehab

• Hopes for the future of

• animal rehab

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Guest – Dr Matt Breeds, Animal Rehab Klink

Website - https://www.animalrehabklinik.com.au/# Instagram - @animalrehabklinik Facebook – The Animal Rehab Klinik

Wiley’s episode

The cat who overcame physical therapy to get back into hiking – Wiley Catote

Sunday’s story

See Sunday’s story here.

Negotiation & Conflict Episode

What to say when people aren’t nice to you about catexploring, with Amanda Semenoff

Podcast Partner – Basepaws

This podcast is bought to you by the Basepaws. Use CATEXPLORER for $15 off your very own CatKit to test your cat’s DNA.

Music

Music for this episode was composed and performed by Kory McIntyre.

Cover art

The photo used for the cover art for Season 3 of Catexplorer Podcast is of @renske_aken & was taken by Sylvia van Heek.

Transcript

Please note - this an automatic transcript, and as such may not be very accurate.

Dr Matt Breeds 0:00

There's a common list of injuries for each animal with my expertise is in the orthopedic side of things. And for cats some of the most common issues our wrists and elbows and knees and hips. Hasara Lay 0:15 Join us as we chat to amazing cat explorers and experts, learn from them, listen to their war stories, celebrate the wins and laugh at the funny moments that have been a part of the journey. Welcome to the CAD explorer podcast. I'm Hasara Daniel Lay 0:39 Lay and I'm Daniel we're going to be learning so much during this episode. So we would love to hear what you have learned take a screenshot of your phone share to Instagram Stories tag us at can explore a community and our guests at animal rehab clinic that is animal rehab k l i n ik and share what you learn. Maybe we'll pick up something that we've missed Hasara Lay 0:59 one I've come to learn about lumos is that he's a social cat. You've probably heard him in the background at the cat explorer podcast because he's always in the middle of everything. For a long time. I just thought this was a lumos crack. But since learning about lumos, his DNA and his base post DNA test, we've learned a bit more about his searchable nature. Turns out lumos has a lot of DNA that matches up with Russian blues. And an interesting fact about Russian blues is that they remember their favorite visitors even if they don't visit often, which we realized lumos actually does. We've been adjusting lumos is enrichment in line with these personality traits which are highlighted and he's based paws report. So since it's currently so hot in Australia and smokey from the bushfires, we really haven't been able to go cat exploring, but now we know that lumos has his favorite visitors and we're catching up with them at home so that lumos can spend time with him and it's made him much happier. On top of that lumos is baseball's results highlighted that he has a high risk of getting diabetes So we're making an extra effort to manage his food consumption based paws are always improving the test results and we'll be adding your cats health markers in the future to for example, they'll be able to tell you if your cat has the health market for hypertrophic cardiomyopathy or polycystic kidney disease, and this will help you prepare accordingly. Your kidneys base post report is updated as they gather more information over time, baseball's have kindly given cat explorer podcast listeners $15 off the very earn cat DNA kit. Just use the code cat explorer 15 at baseball's dot com that's cat explorer 15 one word at bass pause calm. Before we start our chat with Matt, we've come to a realization this week. We've previously used some of the slang on the podcast. And while we try to avoid doing so sometimes it just pops out. And we're aware that those phrases may not mean anything to our listeners around the world. So today we'll define a few of the things that are In this episode so that it makes sense when you're listening while making this list, we realized that Ozzy's love shortening words like post up which means post operative physio, which means physiotherapist rehab, which means rehabilitation fellow, which means fellow or a guy fully, which means football and in Australia, that's a form of Ozzy football, not soccer. And another term you'll hear in this episode is chugging along, which means to go along slowly. These are the other terms and phrases we picked up but if there's anything else that we say that doesn't make sense to you, please feel free to reach out to us on social media or send us an email at haber at cat explora car and we'll explain what they mean. Daniel Lay 3:41 It's quite normal for us to see a physiotherapist or a chiropractor or osteopath when part of their body get injured. It's just what we do to make sure we continue to do all the physical activities that we love, but we sometimes forget that our kids can get injured too, after all can exploring can cause stress on their bodies to a certain degree. Okay, like athletes. Dr. Matt breeze is a chiropractor and co Founder of the animal rehab clinic where they provide animal rehabilitation solutions for pets who are recovering from surgery or other musculoskeletal conditions. We actually just met met a day before recording the last episode of season three, where we spoke to Wiley's moms about her rehabilitation after for Matt was exhibiting at a picture and we were so excited to see some videos of just how animals are treated in clinic particularly as Wally story was fresh in our minds. Today, we're going to chat to Matt about how cats go through physical rehab, the process and what we can do to make sure that our cats are fit and healthy. Welcome to the podcast, Matt. Dr Matt Breeds 4:32 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Hasara Lay 4:33 We're really excited to chat to you. So what are the most common types of injuries that you've seen cats and dogs Dr Matt Breeds 4:38 will we've had quite a big mix. A lot of postoperative stuff We'll see. It's a weird healthcare paradigm with animals that with people if you have a little bit of a sore back, you might go and find a car or an osteo or see your GP or take some pain medications and you'll do that before you start walking funny or before you need an operation with animals. We were hoping That would be the contingent of the animal population we would see but as it turns out, we're seeing a lot of things that that see the know that there's a big musculoskeletal problem room, but they're not ready for surgery or they're not in appropriate case for surgery. Or they just had surgery, something orthopedic. So replacements removals, cruciate repairs, osteoarthritis, arthritic trimming. So we're seeing a lot more of the complex cases rather than just a simple bit of blindness. Although we do see a bit of a range of that. Hasara Lay 5:28 That's really interesting. So like, cats are pretty good at hiding their pain, like we've had situations with our cat noxee, who she's cut her foot and it's taken me a while to just be like, hey, that's actually bleeding like she's and we never really know how she's done it somehow done it inside the house, but she doesn't show a pain from that. Do you have any recommendations on how we can tell if a cat might have any of those injuries? Or is it something that's just really obvious? Dr Matt Breeds 5:52 Definitely not really obvious. It's really, really obvious. I've got a theory and I'm sure the hit behaviors can correct me on this which is totally Fine, I feel like animals try and minimize their pain because if they're the weakest in their pack, or they're the weakest animal, they become prey or they, you know, get euthanized by the rest of the group. So, I think hiding pain until it's pretty severe is a very normal response in animals. Well, common responses shouldn't be normal dogs are the same. My dog is missing her foot, and you can barely tell that she's in pain until you give it a really good poke. And she's only vulnerable around me. So she shows it but a lot of the common signs will be slight lameness, which blamers is means they're walking funny. It could be from a million different reasons, but that's just a generic term changes in behavior, loss of appetite, they might get a bit more aggressive and instead of running away because they can't because they're uncomfortable, they might need they might over groom an area, they might underground area, huge range of stuff. It really comes down to knowing your animal how they generally behave and noticing a change in behavior and when you see a change you sort of thing. Why? And if you know some basic musculoskeletal stuff, you can go through and kind of figure it out. We believe our arms and legs and spine and Had a neck around and see how they respond. Daniel Lay 7:02 So what's usually the first thing you would do when you have the injured cat or dog that comes into your clinic? Dr Matt Breeds 7:06 Well, it depends. It's it's very similar to when you see a human practitioner. If anyone's seen a car or a physio or an osteopath, or anything like that, we'll get as much data as we can through the phone call. So we know, you know, they're looking for postoperative rehab from CCL, injury, or ligament repair, in which case we know exactly where to look. And what we're looking for. The tricky ones aware of it sends us a referral and says, Hey, use this particular animal don't know what's wrong with it. I think it's the front leg or the back leg or I think it's the back and we're gonna go through and try. Try and do a lot of testing to figure it out. So we'll sit down, first appointment guys to 60 or 90 minutes, we're going to sit down, take a peek history, ask everything about the animal, how old it is what it's used for, if it's a pet or an athletic animal, or what's medical history, hopefully, and usually the vet has sent all the nights over so we can have a great day. Those before we start, they send x rays across. So we do a big history, do an orthopedic examination, which starts with the acronyms like look move for you. So you look at them, see if there's anything that's obviously asymmetrical, watch them walk, move them around. So you get them to do active movement where they might sit, stand, shape, lift, turn their head side to side, following treats, we could a treadmill that they can walk on, which I'm talking to a bit later, we'll go through test their muscles, bones, joints, nerves, and see what's either asymmetrical or what's obviously wrong with them. And once we start to build up a whole lot of data, it becomes a little bit more obvious what the program is or where it needs to look a bit more. Daniel Lay 8:37 So it's like diagnosing like any other patient, whether it's human or cat like a dog, just diagnosing what's wrong with them and sort of going through the various tests and observations that you go through. Interesting. Dr Matt Breeds 8:48 Yeah, that's that's kind of what you have to do. You can't come up with a reasonable treatment protocol until you know what's going on. Hasara Lay 8:54 And the difference is that our animals can't talk to us. So it's a lot of watching I imagined and stuff like that. Do ever to give people a bit of context lumos our cat, male cat, he does not like the vet, he doesn't like getting like he loves getting cuddles normally. But if it's something to do with treatment, he hates getting poked and prodded and things like that, do you find that animals are resistive to when you're doing all those kind of tests? Dr Matt Breeds 9:19 Yes. And their response to how you test them is good information to use in itself, if they're particularly resistant to getting touched a particular way. Or you can see that the way they is handling them is outside of what I would say is normal. There's a lot of good information that can use in that some dogs we've worked with, because I've thought might have like an arthritic elbow and we can go through and manage it and stop it getting worse and give them a better quality of life. But they just hate being touched by a stranger the whole time. So you've got to get the owner to sit there and that sits on their lap and the cats often like to stay in their transport, carry bag sort of things and you can just work with them in there once you know what's going on. But we put a lot of effort into creating sort of Safe controlled spaces in our clinic that are quiet, they've got certain aroma therapy kind of devices to calm them down. We can dim the lights, we keep all the animals separated and something that we really tried to do when we built our practice was to make it feel very vetti that to use certain cleaning products that animals can smell, it's always stainless steel, very clinical. It's like the difference from a human walking into a hospital or walking into a physiotherapy clinic. We've got a gym exercise every gym mats on the floor and footballs and theory tube and all this cool stuff. And our treatment rooms got a normal treatment table that you might have that we've kind of changed a little bit from a human practice wooden floorboards, it's a very different environment. So visually through the nose, and in the US. Our clinic is very different to that. So a lot of the time we don't see the resistance from the animals that we might expect because the owners will often put it will put it in the notes when they book in hopes that they're scared of other animals. You can read all these warnings and I'm sort of get a bit nervous sometimes and you walk in and a lot of the time. They're calm. I've only been terrified once. And hopefully that's an outlier. Daniel Lay 11:05 That's a good point you make about how you try and make this inviting experience so that they can open up and give you more opportunities to diagnose them correctly and read them better, which is great to hear. Now, you mentioned the treadmill before. And that's, I guess, the most common type of solution that we can think of when we think of physiotherapy for cats. So can you talk us through the treadmill, as well as what are the options that are available for rehabilitating your cat or dog? Dr Matt Breeds 11:30 Yeah, so the treadmill I was referring to earlier, it's more of a diagnostic tool. It looks like a normal treadmill that you might run on that we've taken all the sides in the front off, it's got a pressure plate underneath the whole treadmill belt. It's got about 15 or 20,000 sensors in it. So if you've ever been to one of those shoe shops and they get you to stand on that plate, and it shows you the bright colored sort of 3d print of your foot, we've got that before animals and it works in real time. So we set up a camera, we get into walk on the treadmill and it shows how much pressure they put through each pool. gage step is where the center gravity moves, and it tracks it over about a 32nd clip. And that way, it's not a diagnosis machine, but it helps put a spotlight on what area of the animal we need to look at a lot more that treadmill can be used for exercise, because you can just get an animal to walk on it to break a sweat or lose weight, or whatever you need to do. But a lot of what we do in the clinics more about if they just need to exercise will tell people what exercise they can do at home and show them how to do it. We can give them the right rehab equipment and tools and information and prescriptions for how often and how long, but there's not many that come in just a walk on a treadmill. This is much more of a complicated bit of technology. It creates thousands of data points, and it gives us a really good way to objectively measure how an animal is when it comes in. And after we've gone through whatever interventions we're going to use will keep getting him to walk in there and retest it and compare it to the first time so you'll often see you know, one foot it's got 25% less weight on it, and you go through a whole lot of laser therapy sessions and water treadmill sessions, and they'll start putting more weight on that foot or this step links will become symmetrical left Toronto front to back or wherever the imbalances, it's a really unique way that you can put objective data points to something that is usually pretty confusing. Like if you say all my cats lame doesn't mean anything, it means it's walking funny, but it doesn't show you where I hell by how much. And this is a really good way to create some numbers around that. So you can measure improvement. So that's the main thing that we use that treadmill for. Hasara Lay 13:22 That's really interesting. I have to ask what if you look this is mainly I must ask this question because I see so many photos, videos on social media of animals just flopping down on the treadmill and refusing to walk on the treadmill. How do you entice a cat or a dog to walk on a treadmill? Dr Matt Breeds 13:40 There's a range of ways that we try and do it. That's all very much positive reinforcement traits with small animals like the small dogs and cats. You can even just stand over the treadmill and kind of support them on their tummy under their tummy. A lot of the times they'll kind of go, they'll just drag their feet for long. That is look at the lock. I'm not going to do this. And sometimes you grab their feet and show them how to walk The walk for them and then I like Oh, actually, this isn't too bad. And then almost every animal, the penny just drops. They're like, Oh, I get it. And they just walk. That's It's amazing. They go from this very confusing foreign piece of equipment to within probably five or 10 minutes for most animals, I just walk on it, you can leave the room and just sit there just chugging along, there's a bit of technique with getting the speed, right, making sure you've got no distractions in the room and all that kind of thing that we the dogs, it's a lot of that treats and food with the cats. It's about showing them it's kind of safe, and it's not even I don't need to run away and it's very quiet, which is pretty fortunate to Hasara Lay 14:32 that so interesting. So we go, we take our cats for walks quite a bit and lumos the boy is quite notorious for getting really lazy. So maybe that's a technique we need to try harder. Okay. Dr Matt Breeds 14:48 Yeah. So, I noticed that a treatment method that you've got is the class floor laser therapy. What is that and how does it work and what kind of injuries does it treat? That's a big question. So to break it down a little bit class for laser there, there's a whole lot of different classes, it's a little bit of some confusing nonparametric, I think it goes class one than one, I then be three or something crazy like that. But either way, class four is the most powerful laser, they can all treat the same things. But the more powerful it is, the less time you have to use it for. So an intervention with laser is kind of measuring how many joules of energy and inputs into the animal that using it on so the more powerful the more power puts out more quickly. So a class for laser can do a three minute treatment that can be as effective as a 30 minute training with a class one lines a little bit of physics. I'm sorry. Hasara Lay 15:41 No, well, you're talking to someone who did it. But Daniel did a physics major at school, so Oh, good. Dr Matt Breeds 15:47 Yeah, he's, you're probably really interested. So then what kind of injuries do you treat with the laser then you can treat a lot, a lot, a lot. A lot of different stuff depending on The wavelength that you use the amount of time that you use the laser for whether the laser flashes on all off or whether it's continuous. It basically uses lot photons and waves to stimulate different types of cells to either do their job more or do their job less. So with an acute injury with his pain, redness, swelling, he will put the settings on to a particular set of specifications and that will help treat pain and inflammation for a chronic condition like an arthritic joint or wrist or elbow that you might have had for a couple of years. It just uses a different set of specifications. It even works for wound healing. So if you've got burns or stitches, we've had a post operative site, it works really well for healing that as well. It all just depends on the settings and get plugged into it. Daniel Lay 16:40 Okay, and so switching gears a little bit we saw on Instagram that 54% of the dogs had torn cruciate surgically repaired will then tear the opposite cruciate within average of 947 days. It's probably because, you know, if we had to hazard a guess they're favoring that non injured leg and then that gets injured and you overuse it. Is there anything to make sure that You're an aged care doesn't injured non injured leg or other side Dr Matt Breeds 17:03 yeah with with dogs and cats cruciate injuries are very different set of circumstances. I'm just to, because you were talking about the dogs for them. It's basically a degenerative process and it slowly happens over time. Most people think of a cruciate injury like oh, I saw a video of a footy player who's named Ben arroway. And I went from having a perfect Khurshid to a broken one. And I happened in a split second. That's actually rarely the case, Hasara Lay 17:28 just asking a Christian is that in the near the ankle, Dr Matt Breeds 17:31 yeah, it's in the knee. It's in an animal. It's called the csea, which is a cranial cruciate ligament in humans like ACL Ico, which is an anterior cruciate ligament that I think crucially is a ligament. They're going to Latin for cross, because there's an anterior and a post here and they cross over and they create a cross. So it's always the one that goes from the back of the top to the front at the bottom of the knee. That's the one that almost always gets injured and it stops your shin bone sliding forwards. So yeah, people think that those ligament injuries always happen because you went from having A perfect one to an Indian one from a big bit of trauma. But what happens most of the time is that they slowly thin and they slowly tear over a long period of time. They're kind of like holding a multi stranded bit of rope over a candle you have like tiny little bits of it go and it might take months, it might take two years. But that's why a lot of people come in and they go, Oh, I just did what I usually did with my pit. And now it's lame. And I went and got some imaging done and turns out its tone. It's crucial. How did that happen? And it's a tough thing. But you explained to them, that's not what made it happen. That's the five years of you know, being overweight and not exercising that predisposed to this and then you over exercise that and then it slowly taught over a matter of months. So it's a lot more complex than just it was good and then it broke. So to go to cats. I did do some research, but it's a bit more vague with cats. Probably like everything about hot cats will get it half of the time. I don't even know what causes it. If they weigh more than six kilos, they're at a much higher risk and if they're over eight years old, which much higher risk as well. But that's about it. Specific as they could find cats do do a lot more high risk jumping than dogs jumping up on things jumping down on things, jumping on to things that you didn't think that even think that I could jump on to find them pretty amazing. Um, and I think it's because of the unexpected landings that if a cat's a bit overweight, or if it's a bit old, then you become at a higher risk of a traumatic injury. But even doing those big jumps with a slowly degenerating one at some point, it might just go even though they're doing the same thing they've done for years beforehand. Does that answer the question? I'm not sure if I went off on a tangent Hasara Lay 19:33 does like it explains why like how, how it could happen. But then so like, I suppose the main risk factors are like having a pet that's might be overweight, a cat that's getting a bit older, but in my head, I'm like kind of trying to think of how we could prevent that and it's quite hard these cats if they want to get up to that top in our case lumos loves climbing, jumping on top of the laundry, the dryer in the laundry, which no one can even get to and it's about two meters high, two and a half feet Hi, yeah, and I can't imagine how because we don't want him to jump up there because it's quite hard to get down. But we can't find a way to stop him from getting up there. So I can imagine that's quite a struggle going like for people, even if they know that their cat is at risk of doing these kind of injuries. Dr Matt Breeds 20:16 Yeah. And look, I'm sure you can thoroughly enjoys jumping out there and being out there and you kind of can't really stop them from doing everything that might get them to hurt themselves, because then they're not going to enjoy their life either. And that's probably just as bad. One of the ways that human athletes, dog athletes and presumably cat athletes prevent normal activities becoming injuries is by staying fit. Staying healthy. Staying at these animals are pretty good at self regulating it particularly cats are always doing stretching, when you stretch your body. It will if you think about bodies, they're very complex input output systems. We've kind of got a basic recipe in our DNA of what everybody should do. Like I'm pretty sure all the stretching in the world's not going to fix that. But if I go out in the sun, I'm going to turn if I go and lift heavy weights, I'll get big muscle If I eat too much McDonald's, I'll get fat. If I stretch a lot, my body will become stretchy, it'll become more limber and more flexible. If I want to have good muscle tone and muscle bulk throughout later in life, you have to be very deliberate about exercise. So one of the hard lines to walk is how much do you exercise and aging pet before that exercise becomes an injury. But if you do nothing, how much do you let them decondition before they get an injury, so it's a really difficult gray area to exist in. But fundamentally, no animals meant to sit around and do nothing all day. So one of the one of the ideas that dawned on me is because my mom and dad getting on in years, and you know, you can see I'm getting a bit shorter and a bit scrolling here. And it dawned on me that no one accidentally gets healthy and fit as they get older. Like it has to be trained and it has to be delivered. And it's the same with your pets. You know, if you've got an eight year old cat that's at risk of a cruciate injury, and it's overweight and it sits on the couch all day and then it wants to jump up on top of the laundry, washing machine. Whatever That's that's going to be a problem. But if you've got a cat, that's a good way that you exercise and it can move around comfortably, it's probably a lower risk of hurting itself from jumping out there. So I guess the the dog point answer is keep them active. Hasara Lay 22:12 Keep going cat exploring, I suppose that absolutely well and there's and there's so many ways that you can give exercise to your cats indoors is also we're going to be releasing this will be released in December, which means it's going to be very cold and winter for a lot of listeners in the Northern Hemisphere. But you can do things like use one toys to get them to jump use a laser to get them to jump a little bit more. One thing that lumos loves is that he loves me chasing him around the apartment. And that because I don't know why he won't run Other times, but he loves it when we chase him around the apartment. So that's just one way to get him active. And then to be honest, me as well. Yeah, well, there are a few options out there. Daniel Lay 22:50 So we thought it would be interesting to learn about post surgery rehab, can you take us through what that involves? Dr Matt Breeds 22:56 Yeah. So to break down the phrase post surgery rehab, the surgery almost always needs to be orthopedic. So something that does a joint muscle, bone, ligament tendon, when you tear a muscle or you have to have any of those interventions done, whether you get a joint replacement, there will be a period where you have to do nothing, you got to sit in a cage, take any inflammatories and painkillers, try not to lose your mind so that ligament fibers can heal together and stitched together because if you use them too much too soon, every tears and you go back to square one, one of the side effects from cage rest is muscle wasting, loss of bone density, and loss of ligaments and tendons flexibility and elasticity. So if you go and sit in a cage for a couple of weeks, and then you get out and try and go back to what you were doing before, you'll often wind up with a different injury, because your body's going to be moving very differently. So the idea of post op rehab is to get you back to pre injury status as quickly as possible in a really predictable, safe, low risk environment so that you have a high quality of life. It's in the human world. Certain won't touch you with for an orthopedic surgery unless you agree to do rehab afterwards, because I know that the post operative outcomes, multiples multiples better if you're doing exercise therapy as well, it's something that hasn't really been common in the animal world, at least where I'm from, at all, which is why we started at practice, because we'd say so many animals limping and hobbling around and blowing one day and blowing the other one and getting arthritis and having muscle wasting and just losing quality of office. Simple things that we can, you know, give owners to do, and you get them back to pre injury status after their operation. Hasara Lay 24:35 You know, it's like when you put it that way, it's so obvious, right? But I think it's just we spent so long where we haven't done it. So it's really interesting, but I also read about prehab What is that? Dr Matt Breeds 24:47 Yeah, so that in the human world as well, it's a much newer idea. So that's preparing your body to go into surgery. actually read a really good quote on somewhere, but I'm just gonna give me a look up. Here we go. prehabilitation Moving towards optimizing preoperative physical exercise, nutritional support and the stress and anxiety reduction so that you go into the surgery in a good place. So when you've come out of the cage arrest and you've come off the painkillers, you're not kind of like baseline zero, you've already got a little bit of a leg out. A lot of athletes in the human world do this because they know that at some point, they'll have to get their shoulder down like a tennis player or arthroscope on a nature or a football player or something like that. So they can predict when the surgeries coming up so that they can prepare for it really well. It's a bit of a shame that a lot of orthopedic surgeries, you know, animals are reluctant spans what people don't really want it to happen. And I can't say it coming because people don't really know how to read the songs of pain, lameness or those changes in behavior. So prehab is something that we're going to try and get vets to do over he will get owners to do but educate vets on the option does exist, but it's a lot harder to do prehab in the animal world, one of the the interesting things we've the VIP profession, at least in history. Failure is they are the hospital, the every single department in the hospital, their emergency, their post op care, they have to do everything and it's one person. And in the human world, they've chopped up medicine into so many sub specialties because there's so much stuff to know and so much stuff to do that no one person can do it. So when you say before that it's so obvious that post op rehab is a good idea. And it totally is, and it's not negligence on the vets behalf. It's because they're dealing with emergency medicine. And they do that fantastically well. And they save lives. They're amazing. But there's only so much stuff you can fit in your brain. There's only so many rooms you can have in your practice to figure out to do rehab, and it's probably easier to carve that bit off and farming out to people like us. And that's what we that's what we're experts in. That's kind of the only thing we do. We don't do anything that breaks the skin, anything we'd love anything that goes inside the vets job. We don't tread on any of those those and we don't want to so it's been tricky educating bits into kind of carving off of the Bit of what they might be able to do, so that they can focus on doing what they do really well. And we can focus on doing what we do really well and ever win. Yeah, I understand that. I Hasara Lay 27:09 just had a thought. Right. So you were just talking about how athletes do some preparation for prehab. Do prehab. So that in them in the case where they haven't, where they need a surgery, they're more prepared. But say, for example, with our cats, is there anything that we can do besides just making sure that they're exercising regularly, that make sure that they're like, I suppose a type of prehab, but it's just including it in our everyday lives. So for example, I know that I sometimes have some hip and hip issues. So I just make sure that I stretch that out. And that's something that I'm a bit more conscious of. So is there anything that we can do with our cats in that kind of space? That's preventative? Dr Matt Breeds 27:48 Yeah, absolutely. And I think it comes back once again, to learning how to read your animal really well, you know, simple, straightforward world. We'd all be born completely symmetrical. We'd all be on with equal bodies and good muscle mass and bone density. But fundamentally, I got the genetic short, short story of having a leg that's slightly shorter than the other. So I got a little bit of a curve in my spine. And now if something plays up, that's the first place that it starts to happen. And because I'm aware of my internal environment, when I start to feel that I'm like, okay, here's the things I need to do to make sure this doesn't become a big problem. The whole reason I got into chiropractic personally, is because I end up with these terrible lower back pain when I was 17 or 16. It ran all the way down the back of my leg, it was kind of like sadhika kind of like this pain. I'll put up with it for months, a chiropractor, adjusted my back a few times, and I was like, my goodness, I'm doing this with my life because it changed my life. I thought I was going to be stuck on a couch and not able to walk. So the little bit of back kind of, I guess, kind of the canary in the coal mine. So knowing your animal, knowing how they move and going, Oh, that looks a little bit funny. That's a bit unusual and kind of like lifting up its legs, having a bit of a poke and prod around and going, Oh, they're a bit sore. There. Maybe That's the start of a maybe they've got over displeasure, maybe they've got, you know, like setting patella, maybe their crusades a bit weak, maybe the hips are a bit funny, but it'll take a few vet visits to figure out what their little weak spot is and where it is. And once you know what it is, you can kind of manage it a whole lot better. There's no guesswork in it. Even if you put every human in the world through this, you know, perfect exercise routine for some people will be way too much. For some people, it wouldn't be enough for some people would cause problems. And it's the same with cats. So you can't just say, you know, get them to do a whole lot of sit to stands to work on their glutes and hammies to stabilize their names. Because for some cats that might cause other problems. So there is definitely stuff to do as to specifically what that's a case by case basis. Daniel Lay 29:40 Yes, every case is different. It makes sense. And l because every pet is different and every pets sort of injuries or conditions are different that he can't just apply one size fits all and that's similar to I suppose humans, like you know, like, you know, we can all do some preventative stuff when we're exercising to make sure that we don't over exercise or put too much pressure in certain areas such as our back or our our our RL hamstrings, or quads or whatever. And, but not everyone's got the same sort of issues. So you can all just do the same stretch and release and expect it to work the same as everyone. So that makes a lot of sense when you when you put it that way and everything sort of just clicking together that a lot of this is very similar to the human treatment and human solutions, but transfer that to the pet world and sort of adapting it to work that way. Dr Matt Breeds 30:21 Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that's become very obvious to us is the same injury processes happen and the same healing process has happened little mammals, they happen to be quicker and animals fortunately, but fundamentally, when you get a ligament injury, it takes a certain amount of time, it takes a certain environment to heal. And depending on where the ligament is, what sort of animal got it and how torn it is or how engineer it is, it creates a kind of a need for a customized program of what exercises to do, how often what to look for. One of the things we're trying to do is set up a bit of a telemedicine page on our website where people who can't get into the clinic, we haven't got it up and running yet, but people who can't get in would be able to get on Skype or zoom or something, we can get into feeling a proper history and we can watch some videos of them, get the owner to do a few tests and hopefully come up with something that will be able to help because every animal has something funny going on with them out there. And there's always something you can do to help but there's unfortunately no good blanket rules out there Daniel Lay 31:16 about that because I there's a lot you can do. And so it's great that you know, you're trying to get out there and help encourage people to give this a go and try and make it work for their pets. Now, that's great to hear. Now, when we met you guys, he told us amazing story about a cat who suffered a stroke. Do you mind telling us a story again, and how you treated the cat and what was the end result? Dr Matt Breeds 31:35 Yeah, sure. Um, so this beautiful cat, let's call him Blacky. For the sake of being anonymous, he came into the clinic one day and he's only his fitness. I think she might have met us at one of our trade show stole market things as well. But she came in and she was like, Look, I know this is a little bit odd, but my cat is got a whole lot of things going on or just want to know if there's anything you can do to help him he was 16. So he's he's pretty old. Apparently, and I still find this hard to believe he's had run over by the car and is still alive had a big stroke still alive. You know? Turns out he actually does have nine lives. I had to see what happens to the next seven. But he came in and he had a radial nerve palsy and his left forearm so he couldn't use his poor. Hasara Lay 32:16 So what does that mean? Like what does that mean to for his poor, Dr Matt Breeds 32:21 so a radio nerve palsy, the bones that are like the long bones of before arm, it's called the radius and then it runs down the edge of that it's called the radial nerve and that nerve controls the muscles in the poor. So he had kind of a limp, limp wrist and wouldn't white bear on it. So we'd walk around on three legs and you pick it up you can feel the muscles in wasted away a bit nauseous flopping, you can feel pain, like you've pinched it, he'd respond to that he basically had a useless left forearm and we thought that was from the stroke and, you know, makes a lot of sense. So we went through today history didn't examination on him. And we basically use a lot of laser therapy on some settings that are meant to Promote no feeling. We did a lot of joint mobilizations and it's not the high speed, high powered cracking, crunching sort of stuff, like really gentle mobilizations because you can't get a cat to do something it doesn't want to do. I think we're all pretty aware of that. So you develop rapport and you can like rub its neck and we were rotating its next slide to slide get it to move up and down, getting it to follow treats, and even even a skull is made up of, I think it's about 13, or 14 bones where there's seven major bones. Each of those bones have joints called sutures that joined the bones together. sutures kind of look like a little wiggly line. You might have seen them on any other scale on a horror movie or something. But they should have a little bit of moving in him and his head particularly felt like it was made out of a single piece of granite. So going through and doing like really gentle release techniques through the sutures and a skull, relaxing the muscles and he's George his face and his head and his neck. We did it once the girl came back in and I was like, if you notice any difference, he's not like I will look he's next a bit stiff. He's got some tight muscles. Let's keep going. And we persisted with it. We did a lot of laser therapy. We did a lot of the hands on therapy, and probably after three or four sessions, she came in and she was like, Oh my gosh, she wouldn't believe it. He did kind of stretch, you know, like without actually back up in the air and do that sort of thing of like cats do that. Did you like no, no, he hasn't done that in years. So progressively, we were kind of, I guess reteaching Blackie how to movies back in a certain way that maybe he was uncomfortable with maybe he forgot how to do maybe had tight muscles that were stopping it maybe had sort of locked up joints that were restricting that from happening, and he even got to move wasn't perfect his front with Paul. But the nerves that come out of your neck all bundled together and control your arms. So I think what happened was as we were fixing his neck and relaxing all of those muscles, there might have been multiple points along that nerve where there was a little bit of pressure and that all built up. So by the time we got down to these poor, it wasn't really working. So by the time we were finished with Lackey, and I haven't seen him in in months now he was walking around on it. was limping. He was a bit weak, he had less muscle in that arm. He's 16 years old. So it's really hard to build muscle at that point of your life. But you could tell he was far more comfortable, his body moved amazingly well. And we had all these kind of changes in behavior and K points that the owner had noticed, had gone from Normal to Buffalo nickel that most of them have gone back to normal. So this cat was happy to come in, he would crawl out of his little bed onto my lap and we'd sit there and you know, grab his head and wiggle around and relax, cool his jaw muscles and risk getting bitten. And he was so compliant. And you know, it was heartwarming, I still look forward to seeing him because it was amazing. And that's not to say that you get the same result every time. Maybe that was a complete outlier, or maybe that had happened really regularly. But the thing is, we don't know because people just aren't used to bringing their pets in for you know, car, physio osteo rehab, all that sort of care. And there's so much that can be done so warms my heart. I really enjoyed seeing Blackie he was beautiful, great cat. You Laws obviously Hasara Lay 36:02 yeah that's that's incredible I love that he was so like he was so into it because I have to admit like that would be my concern if we had to take a cat in is how do we get them calm enough to and I know you said you have the comm rooms and he put a lot of effort into that side of things like did you have to do any type of like positive reinforcement like using trade so I suppose lacking might not be fully into playing with toys but maybe traits or something like that? Dr Matt Breeds 36:29 Yeah, he was a he was a trade cat. Deanna would bring in something very smelly but he loved it so the first few times he needed that distraction but after a while it was very much just give you one at the end because he's been a well behaved combined gotten let me do what needed to be done and it didn't he didn't need any sort of distraction after probably the first these little too. I think you know animals you say they can't or but we just can't understand them. I think they're very good with instinct on my little dog. She She raised She knows what your intent is. And she knows if you're talking to her in a way, that means she's gonna get a little smack on the bomb because she's been done something silly or she knows if you're coming over for a cuddle. And I think lacking and probably every other animal knows that we're here to help like this, we're not going to jab them with something that they don't want or cut something off their body, they might like to use anything like that. So I think they can read Aaron, Tim, I don't know how much of it without a sound like delving into that topic that they're not there. No, Hasara Lay 37:26 no, I completely agree, I think was something that we keep talking about on the podcast, and I try really hard to remember as well is that animals read us really well. So for example, if we're nervous, they're probably going to be nervous. And if we're excited, they're going to be excited. So that's just something to remember. One thing that you kind of just made me think about is so wily is a cat in our communities. We spoke to her mom's in season three and she had an accident she fell off afraid and landed funny. So she broke her leg and she went through some rehab and one thing that they used a lot is clicker training. So using the towel Get stick to get Wiley to move through like a surprise, like an agility kind of setup that they had. Is that something that you guys use a lot as well, Dr Matt Breeds 38:08 um, we, I'm aware of the clicker. It's not something we use here. We've used a lot of treats, but it's something that I click my fingers in Sunday to get her attention and get her to follow me into that sort of thing. But it is really effective. We tend to use traits and leads and with a lot of the training and sort of, it's almost like an obstacle course you could think of it with some of the exercising we set up for animals, we get the owner to walk through and do it. So the animal generally just follows them. So that's what two different ways to go about getting a result and the clickers certainly one of them. Hasara Lay 38:40 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think one thing that really stood out to me with Wiley story was that it had helped to that they'd started doing that before she had an accident. So yeah, and then they're able to just keep using that it's something that I keep in mind for his we use we do a lot of training and target state practice. And I'm just like that would just if the worst case scenario if something happens We could always just use that if we need to. So, yeah, interesting. Daniel Lay 39:04 So we heard about Blacky story and I'm not sure if this is your answer here, but what's been the most memorable case that you've come across? Dr Matt Breeds 39:12 for cats? It would definitely be Blacky for dogs the there's so many the other night they're all beautiful animals Ariel, so there's such heartwarming stories. There's a few that you know, they've come to Sue's a bit too late and that's not such a happy ending. Unfortunately, they're miserable for all the bad reasons. Um, Hasara Lay 39:30 what about Sunday story I'm I've read about Sunday so Sunday is your dog I believe and she's gonna amazing story. Dr Matt Breeds 39:38 Well, she does she she's missing her back left foot just below her Hawk which is the equivalent of a human heel and she was a rescue. I got her at about two months old and a two days old. She had to have a cup full of her foot cut off by that. The story I was told was that I don't know if it's true or not. That Anyway, she got volunteer to a vet clinic was all injured beyond repair. So they cut it off. And Maurice and I just who's my business partner, we just started the animal rehab clinic and the lady messaged us on Instagram and said, hey, I've got this dog with three legs. Do you mind if I bring it in? And you guys can, you know, tell me if there's anything I can do to help it? And we're like, yeah, sure, that's fine. Bringing in the time went through all the normal processes. One day this lady shows up with this adorable two month old right? We have a puppy and I looked at it I sort of the door and I was like race, you're gonna have to do this, cuz I'm going to like, adopt that dog. And funnily enough, through the conversation, the lady was like, Oh, actually, I need someone to rescue it because I don't think I'll be able to look after it. Blah, blah, blah. So I did it. First day I met I couldn't even like give her a pack because I was like, I was like, if I hadn't, I just won't be able to go and I moved out of my unit. I my parents were away on holidays and because I knew that my unit, we'd like to I noticed and adopted a dog. They're away. So I went moved into their house while they were gone and had a puppy and I go, what the hell do I do now? So she's about a year and a half old now. So I've had a for 14 months or something. And we've been working with a guy in the US and coming up with a few ideas domestically to make 3d printed prosthetics for to walk around on one of the the TV show called Better Homes and Gardens and they have a visionary or an animal section. So they did a few episodes on following her story from when she was a cute little puppy walking around with an empty leg through to getting a few prosthetics that were miserable files that were terrible and didn't work and getting some they got better and better and until she's got one that she's enjoyed walking around on, and she does pretty well, but I don't think his story's finished yet because it's got a little bit of an SDN unit where we're up to at the moment and add her surgical side. She's actually got a few little bones of the foot that they lift in there like a normal foot. It's got about 29 bands, and some of them are pretty small. So when she doesn't wear a prosthetic she walks around with her leg. Kind of like a stump or a post. And I think because of that it might have changed the shape of those bones a bit because she's only growing and developing so your bones are more like Harbinger that point, but I think it's a bit sore. So I suspect that maybe when she's too advanced of growing might have to go under the knife and pull closer and then tell the whole process again with the prosthetics. But we she doesn't need to walk a whole lot like she's a special case, the normal rules don't apply. We've got a water treadmill work, so most of her exercises swimming, I'll put her in the tank. And if you look at our socials and website, I'm sure she's on there somewhere that she literally swims for 30 or 40 minutes at a time to do like three to five minutes and have a little break and sit on a stool. So you get a life jacket on and some a little bungee and we have the treadmill belt running. So the water pushes against that. But she does most of the exercise like that. So she Yeah, so interesting story. She's a very sweet, enthusiastic, energetic dog. And yeah, I'm interested to see What the next problem is she creates for us with these prosthetics that we're going to have to overcome. Hasara Lay 43:05 It's, it's pretty cool these I can't remember where I saw it. But I saw the transition of all her different prosthetics that you've created for her and the thought process behind it. And it's pretty cool. And what I will actually do is I'll include those videos from Better Homes and Gardens on in the show notes so that people can watch them to speak. They're interesting, and it's pretty cool these Sunday met Dr. Harry, and that was a vet that I grew up watching. So I thought that was really cool. Dr Matt Breeds 43:33 Yeah, and everyone's very impressed by it. He's a charismatic fella, by the stuff. Daniel Lay 43:37 Yeah. So Matt, we're coming up towards the end of our podcast and at this point, what we do is we go through our first four questions, which the first one is what's one piece of rehab or preventative advice you'd give to cat owners to help improve the cat quality of life? Dr Matt Breeds 43:51 How fast do I have to do it one word? It's not. Hasara Lay 43:56 For us, I don't know why we call them to fastball we probably shouldn't relate reading Take your timing Yeah, Dr Matt Breeds 44:02 we'll probably go through them faster than the rest of them will. I think there's a common list of injuries for each animal. My expertise is in the orthopedic side of things. And for cats, some of the most common issues are wrists and elbows and knees and hips. And that's because of all the jumping it's either the explosive takeoff or the hard landing. One of the other issues that a lot of animals have is having fluffy, soft, slippery paws on tiled surfaces. So when you're at home for the jumping, keep the light down. Because extra light on hard landings on hard surfaces means huge amount of impact on your joints impacting your joints over time least the wear and tear that will speed up the inevitable process of arthritis. The other thing is having high traction surfaces. I can't imagine a cat would ever want to wear them but with dogs you can get these little rubber boots you put on their paws for a few quick floorboards and tiles at home. I don't slide all over the place because imagine if you are all alone walking around with bare feet on an ice skating rink before lovi be sliding all over the place your muscles get sore, you're banging as it wouldn't be great. So we've cats, some of the solutions people have come up with is getting extra rugs or carpets for the hallways, you can go to the shops and get those cheap yoga mats and just sort of pack them to the floor in high traffic or key areas stay mobile, keeping exercising throughout the entirety of your life. Super important maintains bone density maintains ligament elasticity and maintains muscle mass. And now all three predictors of quality of life and avoiding chronic disease. soon as you get overweight, and you stop exercising, you can get all sorts of digestive and chronic conditions, diabetes, heart disease, digestive problems, all that kind of stuff. But fundamentally as well, once you stop exercising and you lose muscle mass and you lose bone density, you're more likely to get an orthopedic condition too. So I'd say the best things you can do to manage the chat keep it active cape, it's white, right and traction on the surfaces. Probably one of the This mentally stimulating and properly so many, like the hunters, the mini tigers, like you watch them walk around the house, you know they're stalking you, but they're just frustrated because they're not big enough to kill you like they're amazing animals. But if they're bored, that's not good. But bored people get depression, bored people act out and behave and all sorts of stupid ways and do stupid things and animals are very similar Sunday, my little dogs been sitting here during a leading half during this, which is something she probably shouldn't do, but she's probably been under stimulated too. So keeping in cats, mentally exhausted is really important. Animals bodies, it's hard to beat them with the insurance game physically because it is built to go all day that mentally You know, we've probably got a bit of an edge on them. Most of us, will I sometimes I wonder if models a bit smarter than me. But keeping a mentally exhausted will tire out an animal even better than just trying to run it until I can't run anymore. Keeping a mentally stimulated and exhausted is really important because then I don't want to jump on to stupid things or boat up and down a tall hallway and slide around the corner sideways and bang into the walls. So Super, super, super important and it's, as far as I know, a very under addressed like people go I'll just bought this cool thing for my cat to play with. So I'll leave it with that in a closed room for two hours and hopefully get entertains it but then they're not pets their family members like you got to engage with them. They're important like treated as if it's your child or a friend like you hang out with him. And I think that's as important as looking after their musculoskeletal health. Okay, well, that was a very fast response to fast for I'm sorry that Hasara Lay 47:28 no, I think that's, that's actually perfect. And what you say about the boredom like the reason lumos jumps on that dry is when we haven't been doing his clicker training, or I haven't taken him for a walk. I haven't given him the attention he needs. He's, he's acting out. Exactly. Yeah. And he looks at us like look at me, I'm up here because you didn't pay me enough attention and like he's done it when I've been out all day and I've come home and he's like, I'm mad that you've been up all day. I'm going to jump on the drive and as much as it frustrates me That's exactly what's been happening. And it's such a in terms of what you're saying like enriching our cats lives is so important in any regard a big part of Yes. enrichment. Yeah. So what's been the most entertaining comments someone has said to you about animal rehab? Dr Matt Breeds 48:15 Oh my goodness. I think it depends what mood I mean, some people like why are you wasting your life? You're an idiot. Some people asked me if I'm serious, they think the whole thing's a big joke. Some people think it's amazing, but it's probably not super entertaining. But my mom has been very, very encouraging. Because it's been a it's been a hard slog getting started and I don't know, I guess it is entertaining because I think about it, but she's like, you know what, you're doing a good thing. Keep going. I believe in you, blah, blah, blah. It's really nice. Maybe not the blah blah, blah. It's funny that you get like a full on spectrum of responses. Like some people are just like, You kidding me, you idiot and other people like oh my gosh, I want to do that. How do I do it? So we got a bit of everything. Hasara Lay 48:56 Well, to put it into perspective, I started a cat exploring business. So I get a lot of those covets, too. I think you get the people who support you are the ones that you really appreciate. And you come to appreciate them more and more and more when you have those bad time. So I think that's quite important to remember lies. They're pretty amazing people to have in your lives. Dr Matt Breeds 49:18 Yeah, I heard a great quote the other day, and I think, I don't know who said it's a credit to whoever did that. Don't take criticism or someone you wouldn't take advice from. And most of the people would have been critical online, you know, Nigeria, anyway. Hasara Lay 49:30 Yeah, exactly. And I think that's because I'm Elliot this season will also be doing a podcast episode on negotiation and conflict that cat explorers have when they're out and about and I think that's a big thing that we spoke about was sometimes you just have to let it go. It's not even worth it. So yeah. Daniel Lay 49:49 That's it. So what cattle dogs inspire you on social media, Dr Matt Breeds 49:53 um, I'm not the most social media active person but I I mean, I've got a little thing for Oculus because I have one and I don't even know the name of this dog or a different has got a Facebook, social media handle that it's just beautiful. And he's got a fake front leg, which is bright pink. So I'm assuming it's a female and it's pretty sexist. I mean, might be a male under the bright pink front leg, but I look at that and unlike, yes, we this is this is achievable, you know, we can make a difference. So it's not one particular item. That one always comes up and I like it. I always look at it always there with a lock. I'm sure it's been around about 50 different pages. And obviously, they can explore you guys. Hasara Lay 50:37 So what do you hope to see in the future for anamarie habilitation. Dr Matt Breeds 50:42 I would love it to become much more of a mainstream and frontline approach the same way that CCI is a normal part of managing human orthopedic medicine. I would love to be terena Moria to be saying the same way not something it's a bit weird, not something it's a bit fringe not something that's for people who are animal fanatics that want to go the extra mile. This is for people who know their animal need some orthopedic help, and they go and do it. And that's not not an issue i'd love. That's to understand a bit more about it. And we're working hard to try and build bridges with at least at our local ones and the ones that refer to us to continually educate them on what we do. And we're not some weird heretics running around doing voodoo magic, but we like literally doing evidence based research and intervention measuring pre and post and working together. And I guess that's the other thing I'd like to see. I don't want there to be any divisiveness. You know, I think we're in such a new place. There's no bad blood, but there's not a lot of good blood either. Whatever the opposite of bad bodies. So I think it's we're in a very neutral territory, and I'd like to just to go the way of everyone working together and going, the ideal outcome is to have happy animals and good a good quality of life. And who cares which clinic My gosh, Hasara Lay 51:59 that's a really good important one, and I'm going to totally butcher the quote, but it's from Harry Potter and they say something along the lines of what better working together been divided because then we can get to that goal and it's all better for everyone. So I like that. Yeah. Daniel Lay 52:13 more power to you. So Matt, this been incredible chat. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast in green when Asara when she was super excited at the dog lovers show came up to you and asked you all about what you were doing and asking all these crazy questions. He must have thought we were crazy. Dr Matt Breeds 52:31 So Oh, the dog lover show this crazy people everywhere. I'm probably one of them. Daniel Lay 52:38 Where can close find out more about you and the animal rehab clinic? Dr Matt Breeds 52:43 Probably our website and our socials which is just animal rehab. clinic.com.au Clinic is spelled k l i n ik. It's a bit German, but we did that so we can abbreviate the place to the ark. Okay, so animal rehab clinic coming to you and we're on Facebook, Instagram, and Probably not Twitter, but maybe Twitter. I'm not sure. Hasara Lay 53:02 Awesome. So what I'll do is I'll put those links and details in our show notes, which you can find at cat explora.com forward slash podcast. Daniel Lay 53:10 This is our last podcast episode for 2019. We'll be back with season five in February. We might even do a mini episode before then. So keep your eyes and ears peeled for that. Hasara Lay 53:18 It's an understatement to say that 2019 has been a big year for cat explorer and the cat explorer podcast. It's hard to believe that this time last year we were recording our first episodes and wondering if anyone would listen to the podcast, I wouldn't have believed that the California podcasts would have been listened to more than 13,000 times appeared in the top five of the apple podcast charts for pets and animals all around the world. And most of all connected us to so many wonderful people Daniel Lay 53:41 would like to take this moment to say thank you to each and every one of you for your support this year. Thank you for helping us show that there are cat explores around the world. And thank you for supporting us and everything we do. Hasara Lay 53:50 And a huge thank you to our amazing guests on the podcast. So many of you said yes to being on the podcast even before it was launched or even before it was getting the downloads it gets now Thank you for taking a risk and agreeing to be on a podcast when a crazy woman usually from the other side of the world reached out to you online Daniel Lay 54:06 would also like to say to everyone Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. We hope you your kids and your families have an amazing holiday season. Hasara Lay 54:13 That's it for today and until next time, enjoy giving your kitty the world